Chris Bordoni is a former athlete, elite consultant, cancer survivor, and resilience coach. Chris is also the host of "Reinvented" a podcast about resilience and resilient people. Chris and I discuss resilience and how it applies to surgery, surgeons and a healthy life outside of work. You can find out more about Chris at: https://chrisbordoni.com/. You can find the Reinvented podcast at: https://chrisbordoni.com/reinvented/.
Chris Bordoni is a former athlete, elite consultant, cancer survivor, and resilience coach. Chris is also the host of "Reinvented" a podcast about resilience and resilient people. Chris and I discuss resilience and how it applies to surgery, surgeons and a healthy life outside of work. You can find out more about Chris at: https://chrisbordoni.com/. You can find the Reinvented podcast at: https://chrisbordoni.com/reinvented/.
All right, and welcome to operate with Zen. Today I am joined by Chris bordoni. Hey, thanks for having the show. Yeah, it's wonderful to have you here, Chris. And so for everybody's introduction, Chris, and I share medical history and medical experiences, but I'm going to let Chris introduce himself today.
Chris Bordoni:Sure. So I'm Chris bordoni. I am wearing a lot of different hats, I guess professionally. So I work as a management consultant have my own business for the last six years or so I have a coaching practice, I teach at one of the business schools here in the DC area, and then also have my own podcast called reinvented. But I think for the purposes of this conversation, and how Phil and I got to know each other, I'm also a cancer survivor was diagnosed at age 30. And that, among a few other things got me spending a lot of time thinking about resilience about the idea of reinvention, and really just how to how to live a better life. So I'm happy to be here on the on the podcast today and excited about the conversation.
Phillip Pierorazio:Thanks, Chris. It's a real pleasure to have you. And, you know, we talked about a lot of these things before, but maybe you could share with us just some general thoughts about resilience and knowing your personal story, feel free to interject with pieces along the way that that you think would help the audience understand how that all ties in?
Chris Bordoni:Yeah, for sure. So I think, you know, resilience has gotten a lot of attention in the last year or so. And I think that's, that's not surprising. In fact, when you look at the data, like the interest on like, you know, Google search, things like that it's basically doubled over the last year or so. And I think a lot of people are thinking about it. And I think for good reason, I'll say as an aside that I think resilience was incredibly important before the pandemic and everything else that happened in 2020. I think it'll be just as important, if not more so after the fact. But I'm glad that people are taking an interest in it. And I think there's a lot that we can learn from from the last period of time, but really, I think just going forward thinking about how do we all live our lives? You know, definitionally, I mean, people talk about resilience and a lot of different ways. I think, you know, some people talk about the ability to bounce back, some people talk about the ability to get through difficult experiences and carry out your mission. For me, it's really about how do you get through a challenging experience, and then find a way to thrive, find a way to grow on the other side of it? So it has sort of that post traumatic growth element of how do you take things that are challenging, and use that as a catalyst for you to grow, live a better life, etc. And so I think, you know, in sort of my experiences in my research, there's a couple big themes that came out. And I'm happy to dive more into these. But, you know, one is that I think we forget this, but everyone, you already are resilient, right? So if you're listening to this conversation today, you already have tremendous resilience, just by virtue of being here, I think we lose sight of that, particularly when we get sped up when life gets difficult, when we're having a you know, going through a difficult period of time in our life, like we forget about the fact that we have a whole bunch of skills that we can draw upon, that we've used many times in the past. And so sometimes, you know, resilience is just about remembering the fact that you have all these things that you can draw up on. I would also say that, you know, resilience is a multifaceted thing, right? So, you know, went through cancer and have gone through some other health challenges. But, you know, the skills that got me through that, and you know, what allowed me to succeed or not succeed is maybe different than if I found out that my young child is sick, right, and had a terminal disease or something that would impact the quality of their life. Like we can imagine scenarios where you'd be tested in different ways. And so I think resilience is important to think about the fact that there's some nuance or some complexity to it, I then add that you certainly can build more resilience, it's absolutely something that can be built. But it is one of the things that takes an investment over time, it doesn't happen overnight. There's no silver bullet, there's no podcasts you can listen to, there's no book you can read that will make you resilient. It's something that you can work toward. And it's something that like anything else is hard and worth doing. It requires an effort over time, but I think you absolutely can get there. And there's there's lots of different strategies or ways that you can move closer and closer to being you know, more resilient version of yourself.
Phillip Pierorazio:I think those are great tips, Chris, and a great summation. And one of the things you said early on is it's kind of post traumatic growth. And all of us experienced trauma, some, you know, to greater degrees than others. But certainly we all go through trauma, and certainly we all have to develop skills. How do you see your personal story of trauma for lack of a better term fitting into the way you've developed your resilience?
Chris Bordoni:Yeah, that's a good question. So you know, I mentioned getting sick, I was 30 and having cancer and all that, but but there was actually a series of challenges earlier in my life that I think were stepping stones that prepared me for that. So starting when I was about 17, I had a series of health challenges, sort of one after the next. So when I was 17, I was a competitive swimmer. I blew up both my shoulders I went on to have four shoulder reconstructions, and my swimming career basically vanished. then fast forward a couple years I was working in professional services, long hours working for prestigious firm, that sort of thing. And had a really serious back injury and you rehab for five, six months and couldn't get back to a place where I could sit for more than an hour, let alone sitting for you know, 14 hours a day traveling all that stuff I was doing so had to leave that job, ultimately got healthy, went back to a similar type job, had the same back injury recur. And then, you know, found a way to sort of make some changes in my life, and then had just gotten married, had just started my own company just got my first client. And that's when I found out that I had cancer. And so when I think about my own resilience journey, it's been really not one big thing. It wasn't like I just showed up one day, it was a big trial, and then you know, a big challenge in my life, and then sort of do you get over the hurdle or not, it was more like, really, when I look back at it, there's just been a series of tests that I've had in my life, and they've been, you know, many of them have been more physically oriented for me than perhaps for some other people. But I think like you say, Phil, we all have things that that try us and that challenge us like we all get pushed to our limit. At some point, like that part is a certainty. What it looks like I think is different, when it happens is different, how you deal with it is different. But that's just part of life. And so when I think about my upbringing, that certainly had a big impact on how I was able to approach those things. And then the fact that, you know, I was went through a series of challenges over a 13 year period pretty regularly that, you know, gave me the opportunity to sit and think about things like, you know, my values, my faith, etc, the things that became really helpful, but also just forced me to figure out, you know, how do you deal with these types of things? And in the aftermath? What do you make of it? How do you make something good out of a situation that like, on the face of it doesn't really have a lot of good offer?
Phillip Pierorazio:Yeah, that's, that's really great perspective. And if you wouldn't mind, take us through potentially some of the skills you feel like you've developed or you work with, potentially some of your clients to develop to help them be more resilient or build up those skills.
Chris Bordoni:Yeah, for sure. So I mean, you know, when you think about what drives resilience, there's a couple things that are worth mentioning. But only I think, really just for the sake of completeness, right. So like, there's, there's probably a genetic component to how resilient you are. And then there's clearly your childhood, your upbringing, like I mentioned, has an impact on it, I don't focus on those things as much, because there's not so much that I can do to control them, right, I don't, I can't really change my genetics, I can't change some of these things to a large degree. So it's not as helpful even though those do in fact have an impact on your resilience. I think though, there are five factors, five protective factors that are relevant, and where you can certainly move the needle, particularly over time. And so the five protective factors, the things that make you essentially more resilient, are as follows. So one is your mental habits. So this would be like, how do you respond? And how do you explain things as they happen? Right? So like something happening, you reframe it as a learning experience? Do you jump off of the strength that you have? Are you curious to have a growth mindset, like all of these things that lump under your mental habits? How do you respond to a stimulus or a setback in your life? Second is your sense of purpose. So the belief that you're needed that your work is unfinished in life and an understanding that your purpose can change, it can evolve over time, right. So this might be your commitment to your family, it might be your professional work, it might be your volunteerism, your religion, it might be any of these things. But this belief that there's, there's a calling, there's some sense of purpose, that requires you to continue to show up, right. The third is your faith and hope. And so this doesn't have to be religion, it could also be things like your relationship with nature, but just the belief in something bigger than yourself, and some higher meaning and order, and the knowledge that you're supported by something bigger than yourself. The fourth, then would be your relationships. So your close personal relationships, the communities in which you're involved, all of these things that make you feel connected and supported. And then finally, it would be your resource. So you know, some people think about this as your bank account, or your personal balance sheet, that's definitely a factor. But you could also think about your physical health and your mental health. Are you in great shape? Are you someone who you know, as you know, you're you. You have the physical ability to withstand trauma or setback in your life, like, clearly that stuff is important. And another piece that doesn't get talked about very much is your capacity, do you have the bandwidth? So are you running at 100% all the time? Or do you have a little bit of slack in your life such that when something happens, you can absorb that you can deal with it? So those are the five factors. And I think what's really important about this is that how you or I or someone else chooses to become more resilient or even just deal with a challenging situation is totally unique. So I might jump off of let's say, my relationships and support someone else might say, you know what, I'm gonna use my mental habits and the way that I explained things to really get through difficult situation and someone else is gonna say it's all about you know, my collection, my connection to God or whatever it is for them right? And there's no right or wrong here. I think we talk about these things very dogmatically, and like we talked about it as you know, you need a gratitude journal or you need to be a distance runner. But the reality is, is that each person can chart their own course and you you as you know, an individual can say, Hey, this is what works for me, or this is where I have some gaps and I want to invest some more, but it is definitely not a One size fits all proposition, which I think is the part that's exciting and fun about it is that you can become more resilient by exploring and falling paths that speak to you. And you have no one to explain to like doesn't doesn't have to look like what I think or what someone else thinks is the quote unquote, right path. It's truly whatever works for you, as you're just trying to deal with these challenges in day to day life.
Phillip Pierorazio:That's really great, Chris, I love the way you put that together. And I'll put you on the spot in a second and say, I know your wife has a big part of your resilience, resilience and how you're doing. And you can or cannot comment on that if you want. But the other part I would bring up since we're are focused a little bit on surgeons in the medical field here, you're one of the things I talked about surgeon about his purpose. I think it's one of those fields, it's one of those vocations that is really purposeful. And I think where a lot of the stress for surgeons comes into it, a lot of the challenges, particularly with burnout, come with loss of purpose, or lack of purpose, or that the field around us is challenging our purpose. So I'd love to hear your comment on how you think this fits into surgeons or medicine or what you've seen in your practice.
Chris Bordoni:Yeah, well, let me let me address the first part first, which is absolutely my wife is, you know, a tremendous source of resilience. Unbelievable partner for me when I was sick, and through everything else that sort of I go through on a day to day basis. And I think, you know, we made a point, we were at, we met in grad school and spent a lot of time investing in our relationship, like really getting to know each other. And just truly spending a ton of time together and asking deep questions about your values was important to us, etc. And I think what we found out later on is that, you know, after we were married, and shortly after, when I got sick, that that actually, those investments became incredibly important. Like we were an amazing team, I think, because we had invested so much in our relationship. And so I think about that now is, you know, we have young young daughter, and, you know, life is busy. And we you know, that's like always the first thing that gets neglected. And I think there's so much to be said, for maintaining those relationships, because they are, you know, one of it, and certainly for many people, the most important source of resilience, with respect to purpose, you know, I think I don't have the perspective of being a surgeon, I think that there are there are some phenomenal things like compassion, fatigue, etc, that are totally unique to that profession. Right. What I would say is that for my own sort of experiences and thinking about, you know, talking to other people around this as well. There are opportunities, I think, to really focus in on what your purpose is, I think I would imagine a lot of people enter into the profession, like, because they want to help, and they already have that feeling of purpose. And so sometimes I think the question is, is there a way to deepen it? And other times, I think the question is, is there a way to refresh it? And perhaps other times, the question is, is there a way to find purpose that actually isn't in your work at all? Right. And so, you know, with respect to refreshing that, like, one of the things that I found that's really interesting, as I started interviewing people on my podcast had been through tremendous adversity. And the more I talked to someone, so if I talk to someone once or twice a week who've been through this crazy experience, it made me so much clearer about the things that I cared about, right, like, reaffirmed my values for me and made me Help me understand why I was doing the show in the first place. Like it gave me that sense of feeling really connected to, you know, the community that I was trying to serve the experience that I've had, just trying to get back in, in a small way, if possible. And so I would imagine, you know, that there are opportunities on your side of the table for people to connect, for example, outside of work. So like, the one of things I think you've done an amazing job of is, you've been really involved in the testicular cancer survivors community, right. And so every time I see you outside of work, and see organizing that community and bringing value to us, as a community like that, that strengthens my connections to you, and I'm super appreciative for that. But I would have to imagine that for you, as well, you get some a different kind of satisfaction out of seeing, like, you know, for example, seeing me now with with a family, and being in a place that just like wouldn't be possible without you and other providers. And so, my guess is that there's a lot of different things. Again, not one size fits all, but different ways that, you know, folks can try to rekindle that feeling of purpose. Or if you feel like you've really done a lot of that already, or that's not the right path for you then think about, you know, is there some sense of purpose that actually has nothing to do with your work? Is it a bowling community that you're a part of, is that your, you know, is it a religious community that you belong to? Is it your neighborhood? Is it some other thing that actually gives you that spark? That, you know, you can draw upon when maybe your work is is really is really challenging, or you're just going through a difficult period in your life?
Phillip Pierorazio:That's great, Chris, you know, I've never thought about the advocacy work I've done in that life. But I will tell you, you hit it, you know, you hit the nail right on the head there. I do get tremendous satisfaction from that. And one of my greatest joys is seeing, you know, patients and friends like you have their families and achieve all the things they want to after a cancer diagnosis. Right. I tell people all the time, the reason we treat cancer so you could do all of the things you wanted to do beforehand. And I never thought about it in that light. But that really helps me I think, and I think will allow me to help others say, listen, search for purpose outside of what you do on the day to day routine. Because as you know, the day to day routine, whether you're in medicine or surgery or any other profession sometimes can really bring you down.
Chris Bordoni:Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I think the routine, like routines are great, there's a lot of value in routines and you know, closely related habits and things like that. But when they become sort of stale, and you become stale, then I think that there's an opportunity to switch things up. And again, I don't know what that looks like, and it can look like in your profession, but, you know, for me, like I had a year professionally where I was pretty burnt out on the strategy consulting work could have been doing, I've been doing it for a dozen years. And so I, I took some time to try other things like, that's when I launched the podcast, that's when I actually formally built out my coaching practice did a whole bunch of things, because I was feeling stale. I knew that I wanted to keep helping people, but I want to explore and try different ways of helping people different models of impact. And so, you know, I didn't know, I didn't think I was fully going to get away from consulting forever, it was an opportunity for me to take a break and come back to it with a renewed sense of purpose, and focus and energy. And so I think, you know, does that require some planning? It can if you're talking about big changes, like what I did, but there's always little interventions, little tweaks that we can make to try and see, Hey, does this actually make me feel better? Like just going to this conference? Give me some energy that I didn't have before? And if it does, maybe I can lean into that? If it doesn't, that's fine. That's just a data point that tells you, you know, you can go find that somewhere else.
Phillip Pierorazio:That's wonderful. Chris, one of the other skills you brought up was making sure you have capacity. And I think that's something that a lot of us in medicine and surgery run short on, we're running from one surgery to clinic to patient phone calls to family, back again. And it's very challenging sometimes to building capacity. So what are the ways you acknowledge or recognize that people can building capacity or when they have shortcomings?
Chris Bordoni:Yeah, I mean, you don't want to be like the proverbial toilet paper factory during the pandemic, right? Like you like we all, you know, businesses were a great example of what not to do, because they all took every penny out of their supply chain. And so what ended up happening is, then you have a shock. And you've seen this now with automotive manufacturers and microchips and all these sorts of things where there's a little bit of a disturbance, and then suddenly, the entire supply chain is out of whack, right. And we have shortages and toilet paper, all sorts of stuff happening. And so I think like that same phenomenon happens in our personal or professional lives. And so, you know, the challenge is, how do you create the discipline? How do you create the awareness that is the problem one, and then to the discipline, to actually preserve some of that capacity. And so there's things you can do around efficiency. And so people do things like so maybe you, you're super busy. And so you have someone who comes in and cleans your house, right? Or you have a nanny or an Au Pair or something like that, because you say, you know what, like, this is a trade off that I need to make, or I want to make. And people do that. And smart people are really good at making those optimizations. But they only get you to a certain place. And then you get to that place where there's no more slack capacity to take out of it. There's nothing else that you can outsource. And so I think the question there is, what happens if you look at what's on your to do list, what happens if you look at all the things and say, Hey, which of these things are really important to me which of these things are truly important, with the recognition that if I'm 100%, maxed out, now, when things are relatively good, that if I have a small disturbance, it's going to create a really big ripple, it's going to create a really big problem? And I think the, this is great, because it helps you to hone down where's the opportunity? Or where's the challenge? The problem is, it's really hard to do, right? Because you've already done all the easy stuff. And now you're in a place where you have to say, hey, what is it? What is it worth to me? What is the worth to not be able to maybe be a part of this research thing, or, you know, to, you know, what, I don't know what flexibility one would have in a clinic, but like to turn something down, or to not take a more prestigious position. Or to take a step back, like, these are all things that may or may not be available, none of them are easy. And so I think, you know, this gets to bigger questions around what do you what do you want out of your life? What do you want your life to feel like? What does success look like for you? And I can say that in a world where more is more, it's really hard to subtract, and it's really hard to back off. But I can also say that, you know, when you look at and you see where organizations get into trouble companies that get individuals and they get into trouble, like there is a lot to be said for not redlining it all the time. Like it doesn't work anywhere. And we're no different. But I think a lot of us are sort of in that place. And I think that the pandemic has made that pretty clear, right, a lot of people were really pushed and then suddenly you have additional childcare duties, or, you know, extra meetings and all sorts of stuff. And like it just it just hasn't been working very well for a lot of people.
Phillip Pierorazio:Yeah, I really like this attention to capacity, Chris, and I think back at my own personal life and career, and I think about mistakes I've made, whether they were personally or in work or wherever they are, and they're often at a time where capacity was really pushed to the limit and I didn't have reserved To kind of contemplate what was going on, or to have double check things or, you know, take that extra step to make sure I was doing things, right. So I think it's a really important lesson, particularly for surgeons to think about when you can make mistakes or other doctors when you're caring for people.
Chris Bordoni:Yeah, I've got I've got imagine feel that there's a business case on this right like that, there's the data that would suggest that when you know, a surgeon feels stressed, or is overwhelmed, or just overworked or sleep deprived, like that, the results are not as good. And I'm sure that someone has done the math to say like, you know, here's the cost of that to you or to the practice, etc. But again, like, what we what you might know, in aggregate, or in general isn't the same as what it feels like being there in that situation, having to decide between, you know, doing X, Y, and Z, or just doing two of those things. And that's really, really hard. But I think, again, like the awareness that that's not a tenable situation, that's not an equilibrium that will continue to exist. Like I think that is a starting point to at least have some of the conversations with, you know, internally, with your loved ones, with your practice, etc. Just to figure out like, what's the right thing. The other thing I would say, and that is, is that it doesn't necessarily mean stepping away from things. But it can be things like building and redundancy, right. So maybe you bring out an extra author to a, you know, a research paper that you're trying to put together such that like you have someone to share the load with you. Or maybe you take on some sort of a commitment, but in a way where you can get out of it. Or you can flex up and down if you need to, like there's room for more creativity and how we contract on things in our life. Everything doesn't have to be sort of like you're all in or you're not all in, even though that's, you know, typically, I think the default position.
Phillip Pierorazio:Yeah, I think that's great advice. And I think one of the things we can really act on in medicine using better, or we can better work with our physician extenders, nurse practitioners, and physician assistants, and nurses who can help kind of enhance the practice and like you said, building checks and balances to make sure things are moving in the right direction. Especially, you know, from a productivity standpoint, we want to be working near capacity. But you're right, once we stress that capacity, it It definitely is an area where mistakes can happen. I'm not sure anyone's done the data or or has objective data in medicine. But it certainly is a very interesting concept. And subjectively, I'm sure a lot of us feel that way. So it's certainly a real phenomenon.
Chris Bordoni:Yeah, and the last thing I'd say in this film is that I wonder if there's not a win win. Like I think about my own experiences as a patient. And like, I would rather work with a really responsive nurse practitioner, then a doctor who's sometimes responsive, right, like, again, depends on what you're talking about what you've been treated for, there's certainly certain situations where like, I want to hear from the person who's to be operating on me or my oncologist, or whoever. But there are times when that responsiveness is actually what I really need, because I have a relatively routine question, or I just need some reassurance. And so that might actually be a win win, right? Where it's, it's cheaper for the system, it gives, you know, the physician, a little bit of extra capacity, and it makes the experience better for me as a patient, I imagine that some of those exist out in the wild.
Phillip Pierorazio:That's a great segue. Chris, I want to ask you about your personal experiences and without giving names or institutions, you can if you want to, but tell us a little bit about your experience good things, you saw bad things you saw, and and how we can be better?
Chris Bordoni:That's a good question. I have undoubtedly work with some of the most talented caring, amazing professionals. And I'm, I wouldn't be here if it weren't for them. I'm super thankful for those those folks. I've also worked with the full spectrum, right? Like I've, I've had enough challenges over the years with and you know, working with different doctors, physical therapists, etc. To know that there's a spectrum, there's a continuum of people in terms of, you know, how good they are, how professional, how effective, or how well they match with me and my personality, etc. And so I think I've had a pretty representative range. And I think one of the one of the big insights for me has been that, you know, if you're not, if you're not getting what you want in there, you're not having the results that you want, like, keep keep looking, right, keep keep trying to find someone else, get second opinions, all those sorts of things, because it's just, there's a lot of variability out there in the world. You know, I think one of the things and trying to tie this back to the idea around resilience is like, one of the things that I've seen people do that's been really helpful for me, is when they connect my experience back to like, my sense of purpose. So for example, like if I've re injured my back right now, and a doctor said to me, hey, like, I really want to get you healthy, because I want you to be able to care for your daughter, like I want you be able to do the things in your personal life that matter to you, that's gonna really help me to recover better and help me to be more focused, more committed to whatever work I need to do to get healthier, right. So sometimes what happens is you go to the doctor, and it's like, this is what's going on with you, this is what you need to do, like, and then like, on to the next. And I think that taking that moment to make it personal and to connect it to me and what I care about in my life is actually incredibly powerful. And I have no doubt would lead to better outcomes down the road. So I think that's one small thing, like just tapping into my purpose. Or similarly, like, you could imagine a situation where like, maybe I need to have a surgery, and I know I'm gonna be you know, that I'm gonna be laid out for you know, a couple weeks or something. thing, you might say, like, hey, like, Are there any good books that you're excited to read about? Or like what you know is or anything you're going to do to spend the time or we get a chance to reconnect with some family, etc. Like, again, tying into things that I care about tying it to that sense of purpose for me as a person, because that makes that experience easier for me to go to go through. Another thing is we talked about, we're talking about connection, right? So some of that is like, how available is that provider? Obviously, that's helpful. I recognize that that's the other side of this conversation is a cost to you as a provider to being super responsive. But some things have been really helpful for me, though, is when like I've had providers connects me with other patients. And obviously, there's some privacy concerns there to be mindful of. But that's been really helpful to people to ask people questions, and I've spent a fair amount of time to, you know, counseling supporting everyone think about other patients who are going through something that I happen to have gone through before, I love the idea of building community, like you've talked about, or like you've been working on, Phil. And I would just say that even though that's not possible in every context, like you can always point people toward where there is community. So you say, hey, there's a really active group on Facebook, for people with this condition, you might want to go check it out. So I think anything you could do to build community and make make one feel like they're not going through it alone, is very, very helpful. And then the other piece is like, when I think about resilience, we've talked about this, we talked about mental habits, but there's something called the three P's. And the three P's are persistence, pervasiveness or sorry, permanence, pervasiveness and personalization, and the ideas that we explain things in different ways. And so like, to the extent that a doctor makes something feel like it's temporary, as opposed to permanent, that's gonna make it easier for me to deal with that setback, right? To the extent that you can say, Hey, I know that you can't do these things, right? I know that for right now. You can't lift heavy things, let's say, if you can say, hey, but here's all the other things you can still do, then that makes it feel like it's less pervasive in my life, it makes it feel like there's actually still a lot that I could do, as opposed to me immediately going to play stuff. I can't do anything as a result of this condition, right? And then the last piece around personalization is where sometimes I've had some funny experiences where someone inadvertently makes it feel like it's your fault, right? Like, oh, you really did a number on your shoulder, or Wow, like, if you keep this up, you're gonna have to have your shoulder replaced by the time you're 50. Like, I've heard those comments before. And I think they're, they're, you know, they're not meant to be mean or anything like that. Maybe they're just meant to be informative. Maybe they've been true. But I think anytime that you can sort of not make someone feel like it's their fault that they're going through something, I think that's really helpful. And again, these are these probably seem really obvious, but in practice, they're small changes in in what's said, and what's not said or how they are said, they'd end up having a really big impact, I think and what the experience is like on the patient side.
Phillip Pierorazio:I think that's huge. Chris, you know, as you know, being a cancer surgeon, a lot of times patients come in, why did this happen to me? And I've always kind of made it a practice of mine to tell them that it's not their fault. But until you said this, it kind of, you know, never realized why that could be so important. I mean, even you see some of our cancers are heavily smoking related or related to obesity or other lifestyle conditions. But I've always tried to tell people, it's not your fault. There's a lot of things that go into this, even if they have one of the major risk factors. And it's nice to hear you say that that makes a difference for people. I think that's a really good take home point for some of our listeners today.
Chris Bordoni:Yeah, and Phil, I mean, so you may not remember saying that to people, or why you said it to people. But I remember you saying that to me, I remember sitting in, in your, in your room at Hopkins with my wife. And I remember having that conversation with you. And I remember you saying it to me, right. So those things do matter. And you know, these moments tend to be so stressful and so important in the patient's life. And if you're doing you know, 30 of those consultations a day like they blur together, I'm sure I don't really know how one would go through and have any amount of empathy and all those things. But for that person, that's one of the most important moments in their life. And so those things that you do and don't say actually matter quite a bit.
Phillip Pierorazio:Well, it's nice, Chris, it's really nice to hear that. And I think that the hint to doing that is really, honestly taking a mindful approach to patient care, right? You have to be present you have to be in the moment, you can't be thinking about the patient you saw before, where the patient you're going to see afterwards, who are you with at the moment? What is their situation? And how do you help them get to the best outcome possible for them. So you know, kind of brings us full circle to where we started of kind of thinking about, you know, a Zen full or mindful approach to surgery and medicine.
Chris Bordoni:I really, I really like that though, because I feel like in my mind, I've always thought of this, like I recognize when a provider will like like slow down when it feels like they're actually listening when they're being patient with me. And I've never I've never connected the dots and thought of that it's like that's mindful behavior, but that's exactly what it is. Right? It's it's someone being fully present in that moment. And essentially like wiping the slate clean, like I walk in and I'm not I'm not the patient that was in there before and I'm not the one that's coming in after like it Me and it's, you know, you trying to understand what's going on? How can you help?
Phillip Pierorazio:Yeah. And once again, it's one of those things that I never really formalized in thinking until I started on this journey of mindfulness and being more aware of what I was doing. But yeah, it certainly does all tie together. I think one of the other thing, I'm sorry, go ahead, Chris.
Chris Bordoni:No, I was just gonna say, I have to imagine that, you know, like every profession, you you learn from people who were there before you. And there's a lot of, you know, surgeons, that who are very graph, they're very brief. And, you know, maybe for really good reason, right. And so I imagine that you may not as a young as the resident as some, as a young professional, you may not actually spend a lot of time thinking about these things consciously. But I think as you do put a little bit of attention on that you do think about it, you think about why do I say the things that I do? Or how do I come across, or maybe choose to ask for feedback or any of those types of things? You know, just because you learn a certain way doesn't mean you have to be that way. And I think that that's, you know, a really full, really like wonderful entry point into the possibility of how can I be a better professional?
Phillip Pierorazio:Yeah, and I certainly can't take all the credit for it. I mean, we were trained by some magnificent people. And one of them in particular was Dr. Walsh, who was kind of one of the world's experts in prostate cancer and still sees patients on a regular basis, despite not operating now in almost 10 years. But he always used to say to us, when we were training and clinic with him, this is going to be one of the top five most important conversations this person's life speaking of a cancer diagnosis and treatment and plan, if not, for some people the most important conversation. So give it the reverence it deserves, pay attention to them, give whatever time they need, and help them, you know, come up with the right answer for them. And that's always resonated with me. And, you know, I don't think Dr. Walsh would describe himself as being particularly mindful, but that really is a mindful approach to caring for patients.
Chris Bordoni:Phil, let me ask you a question. So you were a baseball player in college? Is this something where like, Is there an analogy to be made here where like, before you stepped up to the batter's box, like I don't know, as a as a fan of baseball, I see that like, players have an elaborate routine, lots of superstition, but like a whole, whole song and dance that they go through to get ready for that moment of the pitch being thrown. Right? And they do it over and over and over again. Is there like an analog beret? Where when you know, in that moment before the patient comes in, or as you're walking from one room to the next like, Are there things you can do where you can, you can basically wipe the slate clean, or you can put yourself in that position where you can you know, you can fully listen and all the things that we're talking about?
Phillip Pierorazio:Yeah, that's a that's a great analogy. I love sports analogies, I think there's a lot of ways to compare sport and surgery. routine and preparation is definitely one of them. And I will just put it right up there front, I was a terrible hitter at the last part of my career, and that's why my career stopped. Did I was I was a pretty decent catcher, but I hitting was not my forte, once guys got into the mid and upper 90s. I just couldn't compete. But in medicine, there certainly are ways to kind of set the mechanism clean. And I forget the old Kevin Costner movie or older Kevin Costner movie where he would say clear the mechanism, I think it was pitching a no hitter, and the stadium would kind of go blank and you just be focused in on home plate. And I think there are certainly ways you can do that in surgery. I think when you're seeing patients in clinic, the easiest way to do it is make sure you review their entire medical history before you walk in the room. So you're prepared for them. Right, it officially wipes out the person before it gives you all the focus and attention and detail you need for that person. I think in the operating room, similar things we can do to kind of build in routine, you're reviewing imaging or pathology reports, or whatever brought you to the operating room that day brings you into the zone of that patient and who they are, you know, we do formal things in the operating room called a timeout, where we identify the patient. If it's a ladder reality operation, we identified the latter reality and you know, a number of important safety checks before the operation. And that's a great time to kind of Zen in or hone in on who that patient is. I use it as such, and I'm sure others do, too. Whether it's intentionally or unintentionally.
Chris Bordoni:Yeah, that's really cool. And I love like, just with a lot of things like once you once you make a point to break it down, like you start to see like where can you insert routines? Where can you change habits? Like Where can you do all these things that might actually add a lot of value, some of them might be quite small. But you can start to think about where are the opportunities for me to change the way that I behave or enhance the way that I behave such that, you know, I start to have the outcomes and start to have the type of process that I actually want to have.
Phillip Pierorazio:Yeah, well said, well said and I think as you know to from building routine and habits, it also frees up mind space, right. So you can focus on other things. Or you may draw different connections because you've now built in a good routine to make you more available for the next patient or the next surgery or whatever may be coming up next. Because your brain isn't actively working, you know, to kind of put one foot ahead of the other you know what the first three steps are, so you can start thinking about four One five before you get there. Yeah, exactly. Well, good. Chris, anything else you want to talk about today? Anything we could talk about together?
Chris Bordoni:No, I look, I would just say that. From my perspective, I've been strong and loyal consumer of healthcare services for much of my lifetime. And I would say, one, have tremendous appreciation and gratitude for people who are listening to this, all the providers who just, you know, again, I wouldn't be here without them and who are doing amazing work. Right. So I think, first and foremost, I think that's fantastic. Second of all, I would say that, like when I think about my own resilience and people's resilience, like the fact that the medical community is so amazing, and so fantastic at what it does, I think is a huge asset, right? I think it makes everyone more resilient to be able to tap into that. What I would say, though, if I was like trying to leave an image is that there's sort of a, there's a time, a timeline, right? Where there's kind of like the calm before the storm, where everything's good in a patient's life. There's that acute moment where the train goes off the tracks, and it's really just about like, surviving or getting back on track. And then there's the aftermath and everything that happens after the standpoint of building resilience. Most of that work should be done in sort of the non acute phase, right? Like, we should be investing in our own resilience. When things are relatively good or relatively normal. That's when we should be looking at like, do I have extra capacity? What happens when things go sideways? Am I feeling disconnected or connected to my friends? Like? am I explaining things in a positive way? Or am I being really negative about the things that are happening my life, right? Like, those are the times to examine that, and certainly, in the aftermath, there's a lot of opportunity to grow from things that don't go as well as you would like, in those acute moments. I think it's really about surviving, it's in many situations, not possible to become a more resilient person in that moment. It's where your preparation takes over. Right. And so I think that's, to me, that's the call to action for folks to think about this, make some investments in it. And I just would tie it all together to say that, you know, in those middle moments, the acute moments, that's when the system works so incredibly well. But as provider, if you could think about what happens before with patients and what happens after with patients, and because additional opportunities to support people as they're going through that cycle in their life.
Phillip Pierorazio:I love that, Chris. So I'm gonna summarize a little bit here and say, you know, you've covered some really great things with us, we've covered five factors that can help with resistance, you've covered the three Ps as you went over. I think the last point there is really huge, right? When we're in the acute episode, it's all about survival. So it's all about the non acute or the pre acute how you get yourself prepared. And I think one of the other really important things that you brought up is community, right? We rely on these communities to get better. And one of my hopes is that that's what we're doing here today is we're building community in medicine and surgery and potentially beyond four ways to be better providers, ways to be better people, and kind of move things forward. I love it. Yeah, I think that's great. So good. So thanks, everybody, for listening. You can find Chris at Chris bordoni.com. His podcast is reinvented. He also has a blog that details his story and tells you everything else as well. Not everything else, but many other things that happened in his life and why he is who he is and where he is today. So anything else you want to say, Chris, before we sign off?
Chris Bordoni:No, I would just say if you happen to make it to the website and you're curious, learn more about resilience, there's just two resources there that might be useful. One is a very left brain guide, so very analytical guide to creating more resilience in your life. So if you want to go deeper, take a look at that. If you have five minutes or 10 minutes a day, there's a resilience workbook that is you know, what are what are some really basic simple things that I can start doing and sort of playing with as I tried to become more resilient my life. So two ends of the spectrum. If you want to go deep, great. Read the blog post that longer article. If you want to just start experiment with some things then good, go do that. And there's like a guide for that as well. All right, Chris, always a pleasure talking with you. And I look forward to talk to you again soon. Cool. Thanks, Michelle.