Granville Lloyd, MD is an Associate Professor of Urology at the University of Colorado in Denver. In addition to being a phenomenal physician, surgeon, and teacher, Dr. Lloyd is an avid outdoorsman and athlete. Dr. Lloyd discusses balancing work and life interests on this episode of OWZ.
Granville Lloyd, MD is an Associate Professor of Urology at the University of Colorado in Denver. In addition to being a phenomenal physician, surgeon, and teacher, Dr. Lloyd is an avid outdoorsman and athlete. Dr. Lloyd discusses balancing work and life interests on this episode of OWZ.
All right. Welcome to operate with Zen. And today we are talking with Dr. Granville Lloyd from Denver, Colorado. Dr. Boyd. Thanks so much, Phil. It's really a great pleasure to be here. Well, good. So I will tell our audience, most people we bring on the show have a personal connection, at least at some point. And Dr. Lloyd and I have become friends over the last few years. And I say our friendship really started at about 11,000 feet at the Aspen Highlands during a urology scheme meeting. And we got I don't do great at altitude, and we got up to about 11,000 feet and had to hike to I think it's 12 seven Granville and rebels there. Yeah, Granville was with me every step of the way as I struggled through the altitude, and he hadn't known me for more than 24 hours at that point and took me all the way to the top of the mountain. And we had a great way. A great time coming down. So Granville, thank you for that.
Granville Lloyd, MD:The pleasure is mine. I mean, I think they would say that you get to know people pretty well climbing hills together. And that certainly was an example of that would have been easy to turn around. But we were both you were quite determined. We were both quite determined to get up there. It was incredibly fun.
Phillip Pierorazio:Yeah. And I think the turning around and going backwards might have been more treacherous than just seeing the climb as well, as often, as has often the case. Yeah, so so one of the reasons I asked Granville to talk with with us today is Granville is one of the most balanced people and friends. I know he is a skilled urologic surgeon. He is an avid outdoorsman who participates in a number of outdoor sports. He is well read and well versed and a phenomenal person to talk to. So today we're really going to talk about balance in life and balance in a medical and surgical field. So I'm going to get right to the questions ramble. if that's okay with you, do you have any kind of definitions or framework of balance or how you see these things in your life? Well,
Granville Lloyd, MD:first, let me say I think that's an incredibly kind and generous assessment of my life. And my balance, because I like I think many of us feel commonly Off Balanced or just wishing I had more time, and better focus to devote to so many of those aspects. And literally, for me, I feel like it ping pong around a little bit between wishing that I was skiing more wishing that I was playing hockey more wishing I was riding my bicycle more. And focusing more on what I'd like to accomplish in those domains, which is candidly not that much just be a little better in the community races or something. And at the same time trying to put all the time possible into academic neurology put all the time possible into writing papers, and operating. And it's tricky. I think that there is a lot of concept out there about balance as it needs to be 70% X and 20%, y and 10% z. And that if your numbers don't add up to that, then you're not doing it right. And I actually take a lot of issue with that as just a concept. Because I think every person's balance can be extremely different. And I do think there are people and we know them, who can be very happy. And for them extremely balanced, doing one thing in a very focused fashion. And it's an interesting concept. It comes up I think, for example, in the new pop concept of grit, and there's been some really thoughtful discussion surrounding that. And then as is often the case, I think some somewhat misperceived are less thoughtful discussions that follow that. But balance in my case, I think is more of a enthusiasm to pursue a lot of different things at once. And I do think it's possible to have that workout. But I think it's I think it's tough. I think the hardest part for everybody is to figure out what actually makes them happy in terms of amounts of time, and dedication and success in those domains. And and the example for me is recognizing that I am at best going to finish in the top half of the mountain bike races locally, and that I'm just wasting my time any harder than that At best, whereas I might have a little bit better luck in the domain of Urology, and that that gives me just as much satisfaction. But I think that the hard part for everybody and for me certainly is to figure out how to thoughtfully give time to each of those domains. And I would a little bit ask that question back to you as somebody who I think all of us recognize as being so incredibly successful in the domain of Urology, certainly and at the same time, happily married with a wonderful family and and and, you know, really, from the outside living your best life, while performing. It's such an incredibly high level in urology, I mean, how does one prospectively, think about allocating time for those kinds of things?
Phillip Pierorazio:Yeah, that's a great question, Granville. And before I get to the answer, I just want to reflect back a couple of the really poignant things, I think you said there, I love you said, enthusiasm to pursue a lot at once is kind of one of your definitions of balance. And I love that line. And I love that concept. And I would say that part of the way, I've been successful, and thank you for saying that I don't always consider myself successful, but I do try really hard is to have enthusiasm and to bring energy to what you're doing at the moment. And part of this journey. And we'll talk a little bit about your journey moving forward. But part of my journey is been figuring out how to be present, right? When you're in the hospital, work as hard as you can, at taking care of your patients, when it's academic time, work as hard as you can, and with as much energy as you can, and being productive with the students and the residents and the fellows you're working with. And when you're outside of the hospital be as thoughtful and productive and energetic with my children and my wife and my family as I can. And it's not always easy to do. But it is I think that's kind of, you know, my concept on it. And my framework has shifted. And I think what's important here is, you describe a great framework that works for you, I'm going to talk a little bit about a framework that works for me, each of us is going to have our own framework, there's no right or wrong. And I think you said that in the beginning. For some people, it's 70 2010, or whatever those things are. For some people, it's 100%, as you said, and my framework has been I really don't like the models of the that old school scale, right work life balance, one goes up and one has to go down. I don't think that's necessarily true. So the framework I've developed and as you know, I've gotten a little bit more to yoga. And mindfulness is kind of thinking of balance as a complex yoga pose, right, you're pulling in one direction, you're pushing in another one, you're squeezing here, you're tightening there while you're focused on something different. And that's the framework I keep in my mind, right now for power balance.
Granville Lloyd, MD:I just love that analogy. And I feel that it sort of reflects or emulates the idea that there is going to be a little bit of discomfort, at the same time that you're in that pushing pulling balance and that that's okay. Having spent some amount of time on the yoga mat in my day. That's, that's that's kind of how it feels. And it does feel like it can be a push pull at times. But I think if you sort of recognize it's going to feel like that, and accept that as part of the experience. Maybe that makes it a fair bit better. I did have a question about time allocation. Because I feel like one of the things that happens, especially with academics, especially with deadlines, is that the demands and the goals and the oh my gosh, this paper needs to get done to this abstract needs to get submitted. Just keep creeping up cases come the need to get operated on. And the the work can push the balance into the life a lot. And I wonder if that's what happens to a lot of people is that even with fairly well thought out goals of I want to spend X amount of time at work and why amount of time at home, that one can push its way quite a lot into the other. And it's pretty easy to think of examples where the opposite could happen. Do you try to draw lines based on amount of time in the day? Or how do you how do you go about trying to parse segments of your day into those different areas?
Phillip Pierorazio:Yeah, it's a great question. I kind of consider it a little bit of macro management and micromanagement of the day. And so by macro I mean, you know, at the beginning of the week, I sit down with my team, you know, my wonderful administrative assistant, the nurse practitioner who shares the practice with me, and we kind of look through the next two weeks and we kind of plan out okay, this day, I know exactly what my clinical duties are because that's what A team is mostly responsible for his clinical duties. So we know what the clinical obligations are every day. And then I look at Okay, what are the other obligations are the other things I need to get done and want to get done. And that just helps me plan out at least two weeks in advance. And obviously, before COVID, we would also plan out things like traveling to meetings, which is exciting to think about again, but we're not quite there yet. And then yeah, and then during the day, I sit there and go, Okay, I've got this time from this time, you know, I've got, let's just pick a normal day. Usually, I get in pretty early, because the early part of the morning is my, my most productive time My mind is awake, I write really well, I read really well. I'm very efficient early in the morning. So I tried to be in early in the morning, other people may be more efficient later in the day. And I think one of the things is recognizing when you're at your best, and then I will give myself blocks, okay. You know, I'm going to call patients from nine to 10. And then I'm done with Epic, because guess what, whether you clear your epic inbox or not, it will be there tomorrow with more things to do. So it can eat away your entire day if you don't set boundaries. So the first thing I do is set clinical boundaries and rely on my partners rely on my nurse practitioners and my administrative staff to handle things and truly come knocking on the door if there's an emergency, but mostly, you know, protect me so I can devote time to the students and the fellows in the grants and the other things you need to write and review. And then I think micromanaging time building in 45 minutes here or an hour, they're devoted strictly to one test, helps you be present really focused on that task. And by setting a boundary or a stop time, gives you you know, you can't drag it on, you have to be done in that period of time. And the other thing I really built in which took me a long time to learn is brakes, it's important to take 1520 minutes off, walk to the coffee shop, walk to the furthest coffee shop in the hospital, and give yourself a mental break a physical break, to be able to come back and sit down at your desk, and you'll be more productive in an hour and 45 minutes of work with a 15 minute break than you will be in two hours where you sit there and scratch your head for 15 minutes. So those two that's kind of the way I think about it. Now with macro and micro planning.
Granville Lloyd, MD:I couldn't agree more I hit so funny say that about the coffee shop because I do exactly the same thing here at the Denver via the Rocky Mountain regional VA, the coffee shop is literally like three quarters of a mile away through the halls of this bill. And to do the same thing, I think is just so important to get up periodically take a walk periodically clear your mind. And I think there's really good social science supporting literally everything you said there that working in long periods of time is just ineffective, I used to sit down and say, I'm going to sit here, I'm going to stay here, I'm not going to leave until I get this, whatever it is I get this manuscript finish till I do this. And that just doesn't work very well. Because you've given yourself an open ended period of time. And inefficiency can just rush in the door to fill it as opposed to I'm going to work for 45 minutes, then I'm going to go get coffee regardless of how far I've gotten. I think that's just such a more productive scheme.
Phillip Pierorazio:Yeah, there's a great Hemingway quote, which I'm gonna completely butcher. But it's something along the lines of the best time to stop writing is when it's going really well. Right? And you know, the Yeah, the point he would get to is that stop when things are going really well. Your mind is energized and excited. And guess what, when you come back, whether it's later in the day or tomorrow, you pick off with that excitement, and with that energy, right, rather than trying to salvage a writer's block. And I haven't been able to operationalize that. Let's put it that way. But I think it's a really interesting concept to kind of think about, I'm more with you where, you know, discrete period of time, 45 minutes, an hour, and then I'm done. And I'll come back to it the next day. But, you know, it is very interesting Hemingway quote that quotes around there.
Granville Lloyd, MD:Yeah, I really love the idea of limiting the epic, or in our case, cprs. Well, in my case, both time, it's it's just so crystal clear for those of us in the practice of medicine, that EMR is just encroaching on our sanity in every possible way. And and limit and define our interface with what I think of as the dark side periodically, is just such a good way to kind of remain in control of the inbox. It can become such an incredibly onerous task.
Phillip Pierorazio:Yeah, and, you know, I think patients are pretty respectful to have it too, if you set boundaries for them. And if you're responding to patients at 9pm, or 10pm, or two in the morning, guess when they're going to send you Communications at 9pm or 10pm or two in the morning. And if you keep your responses to business hours, it conditions your entire practice, I think a little bit to understand when you're going to respond and when you're not going to respond.
Granville Lloyd, MD:Yeah, I've come across a pretty interesting thing. And I was kind of curious, get your take on it from sort of a, how do we avoid burnout more than anything, I've spent a bit of time in the burnout domain lately for some set of reasons. And one of our really talented medical students recently came in, we were talking and she said, you know, in third year of medical school, they come at us, you know, what feels from her standpoint as almost constantly with these burnout prevention classes with things that basically deliver the message to her of number one, you're going to be burned out, you may love medicine now, but you're gonna get burned out soon. And and here's the ways that you can deal with the system, here's the ways that you can survive this horrible thing that you're about to get into. And that's kind of the way that it is come across, I think, to a lot of them with all these sessions with learning how to do things that have great merit, but they sort of carry this baked in message of, we're going to teach you about how to read the great novels, in your free time, we're gonna teach you about the merits of meditation and yoga, which all have merit. But again, they just kind of say, this whole system is going to crush you, or it's going to try and you've just got to do your best to survive. And one of the concepts is of the obligation of the system to the physician, which it seems has been overlooked a little bit lately, there was a Massachusetts Medical Society had some had had a position paper where they issued a call for x act action, essentially. And one of the parts was the creation of a chief wellness officer, by institutions to try to combat and support these kind of things. And in the EMR interface is certainly a big part of that as well. But I was curious in your system, and in big systems in general, I don't see a chief wellness officer coming yet. You know, I'm not aware of one at the University of Colorado, at least per se, I think, being in the West, we are a bit more oriented towards thinking about those things. But parts of the almost business model that I've seen suggesting the value of this point up the strictly financial costs even of replacing a urologist, a surgeon, a physician of any sort, and saying, gosh, you know, if you're going to spend as much money as you do, keeping the flexible system scopes meeting every standard on earth in the clinic, shouldn't you think about putting a little bit of time into keeping the physicians working at their peak efficiency? But it doesn't seem like that's really been uptaken yet, as broadly as one would expect?
Phillip Pierorazio:Yeah, I agree with you completely. And Hopkins does have a chief wellness officer and a Office of wellness. And I will tell you, and I know that office pretty well, they're great people. And I think one of their struggles. And what they realized, too, is at this point, they're just the way medicine is they are relegated a little bit to kind of the band aid solutions, right? meditation and mindfulness and like you said, reading and how do you deal with and recognize burnout? where, you know, we started a wellness taskforce in our department almost a year ago now. And we said, All right, in our measure, there's two parts of wellness there's, there's the individual and the things you can do to be well identify burnout, be resilient, all of those things. And then there's all of the systematic issues that cause burnout. And in our measure, the individual component is maybe 2% of it, right? I mean, right? All of this burnout comes from the system and everything else that that pushes down on us in this tremendous weight we feel from the system. So you can, you know, that being said, I think it's really important for physicians to understand how they're feeling how they're doing, when is burnout creeping in? How do you re energize yourself and put yourself in a good place. But I really think that these wellness teams need to focus on the systematic issues. Otherwise, we're just, you know, we're putting band aids on and you know, there's nothing more frustrating, I don't know, you sound like you have it on your computer, but we see it in our hospital whole time. The screensavers are about chair yoga and five minute meditation. And there's nothing more frustrating than seeing one of those screensavers when you're having a really rough day, because that's not going to fix the turnover time in the operating room. That's not going to fix your inability to schedule All patient for the operating room right. And so that's really where the burnouts coming from. So I think that's point one. And then you brought up a great point about the cost. And it's and it's not just the cost of replacing someone, but burned out positions make more mistakes, they deliver lower quality care. Right? There's there's a whole bunch of if you want to get right to the finances of it of financial implications of having a burnt out workforce, and why that burnout is so bad for a hospital system.
Granville Lloyd, MD:Yeah, it's a really interesting problem. And I really appreciate you know, the the point that you made earlier about how limiting your interface with EMR in a certain in a time bound way can afford the physician the chance to exert control to some extent, and I feel that that's part of the real underlying problem is that so many physicians feel as if they've just completely lost control, and there's this monster sitting on their desk, that's going to bury them under view alerts. And there's another Yeah, there's 10 guys in the waiting room, building a pile of Sports Illustrated that they're going to lead on fire if they don't get seen soon. And there's just so many demands. Any other thoughts on how physicians can regain that sense of control over over their practice or their lives over their happiness?
Phillip Pierorazio:Yeah, it's a real, it is a real challenge. And I think part of it is the reason we're in medicine is because we're these highly focused people who like, you know, we've all done well in school, and we've done well in medical school, and we've done well in what we do now. And so having an inbox that keeps populating messages, or we're having dissatisfied patients makes us very, very, very upset, right. And so I think, you know, the, the, the first part of it is, is what I said before, recognize that it's not going to end even if you solve the problem today, right? Even if you clean out your inbox, it's going to be there tomorrow. And the other part is engaging, I think our administrators and our teams for for creative ways to help with these things. And I think one of the things, you know, I'm really trying to work on, and we're striving for in our department, and as we build things is getting, it's not a great term, but getting people to operate at the top of their degree, right. So surgeons to be operating, obviously, you've got to pick up the phone, every you know, and talk to patients. And administrative assistants should be booking patients in, you know, into clinic slots, and making sure records are there and communicating, you know, with insurance companies, you know, at the top of their level, and our nurse practitioners should be writing medications, reviewing labs, doing all of the tests that aren't surgical in our practices. And that gives everybody fulfillment surgeons want to operate nurse practitioners want to manage patients, and our administrative assistants want to be useful and service the patients they're taking care of. But the problem is they get bogged down in all of this other stuff. We get bogged down in it, they get bogged down in it, and then we're all struggling in it together. And so I think it's finding the right tasks systematically can also help. And those are big conversations, and they can be harder. And sometimes it also helps you identify, hey, we don't have this support, we really need this somebody to fill this role. And guess what, it's not a nurse practitioner, maybe it's just a nurse, maybe it's a medical assistant, right, who can help with records and collating and other things. So it really just, you know, it, I think taking more stock of what's going on in our practices can help.
Granville Lloyd, MD:It's such good stuff, I've always loved the the concept of, if we didn't go to medical school, if we didn't have to go to medical school to learn how to do it, then we shouldn't be doing it. And I couldn't agree with that more. The one other thing that I'd heard pretty recently, which was a new to me way of thinking about this and looking at it that I just loved, was the idea that from a happiness standpoint, which I think is such an interesting and and vague metric to create, because on a certain level at the end of the day, keeping physicians happy and for us keeping ourselves and by extension our families and friends happy is a very valid goal is is somewhat hard as is for to say for those of us that trained in surgery back in the day and whatever. But but to the point of happiness and and in work balance, if you can identify what your real passion is, they say at work, and that could be strictly operating that could be education or mentoring. That could be research. That could be basic science research and bench work. Spend 20% of your time on this passion that makes the remaining 80% vastly more tolerable. And I would say a minimum of 20% into craft ones data try to do that I've started thinking about my weeks and in terms of this, and trying to also somewhat identify those things that make me the happiest at work. And I'm happy to say there's a number of them. But I love that that metric of you know, I think of it as just a way that one can try to get control is to pick that 20% and really just aim Wednesday or maybe once week towards spending that time.
Phillip Pierorazio:Yeah, that's a great point. And you beat me to it. I was when I read that, that paper and the kind of subsequent literature from that I was surprised that it's only 20%. Yeah, it's only 1/5 of our time. But if we spend one, this of our time doing what we truly love, it makes it so much easier to deal with all the other BS. And, you know, I think that's, you know, you identify some good points, and I'll ask you to be specific, if you don't mind. But for me, you know, I love doing my research and angers I love taking care of patients. And that gives me great, great meaning and pleasure at work. But I really like doing the research. And what I really like doing is helping our trainees kind of develop their their identity in you know, academic medicine or in urology if they don't want to go into academics, who are they going to be. And that's been some of this journey for me. And I really got a ton out of and helps me deal with some of the burnout and other stuff, when I can sit down and talk to people like you and talk to colleagues around the country and the world to find out what they're doing to craft an identity to be a better surgeon to be a better person in general. And I think that's, you know, that's really important. And I think the flip side of that, is realizing that we have, we do have BS in medicine, and we do have menial tasks that we need to do. And we have to do them as doctors and surgeons. But instead of getting really upset at those if you change your frame of your framework and just say Okay, listen, this is the this is the character building work I have to do, this is the stuff that I don't really love doing. But uses as a time to kind of unplug your mind, not get so stressed about it. And it does two things, it allows you to unplug and build a little brain space while you're doing things that don't take a lot of brain power. But then it also on the flip side, that you really appreciate the times when you're doing the work you love doing, whether it's being in the operating room being with your colleagues, you know, teaching students, whatever it may be. So I that's great, great point. Yeah, I
Granville Lloyd, MD:agree. I mean, I think what you said just brilliant, just just picking those times and recognizing the times when the pain is going to happen. And that push pull that uncomfortable yoga pose is, you know, you're gonna feel a little bit uncomfortable doing 1000 you know, alerts and whatever your system is, and that that's okay, because in return, you get to have the opportunity to participate in education and mentoring. And for me, I'd say the same, although, for me, it's been an evolution of what I'm focused the most on. And I would say 10 or 15 years ago, when I was very new to urology and practice, as much more focused on gosh, how can I get this case done? How can I operate effectively? How can I be better from a execution of my job standpoint, and my focus in my 20% has has evolved to include just that I've discovered really startling amounts of pleasure in the educational mentoring, teaching, writing, working with the residents working with the students domain. It's incredibly fun, and it's a really neat way to just participate in something that's purely good. I really do enjoy that. And it's great. Think about it in terms of Okay, this is the times of the day that I'm going to do what I'm what has to get done and then the rest of the time I get to go work on that paper that I'm excited to finish or something so fun stuff.
Phillip Pierorazio:If you don't mind Grandville share with the audience, a little bit of your personal evolutions throughout urology, because it's a really interesting path. And I think it probably has educated you that helped you achieve the 20% you're you're at now. Well,
Granville Lloyd, MD:it's a very unusual arc, and it's it's driven, you know, I would give some of the credit blame both to my mother, who was an unbelievably wonderful person and just a very free thinker. She didn't see any of the sort of hard lines on things in terms of what one should or shouldn't do. And I think that freed up my ability to consider alternatives that I might not have. So I was originally a fourth year, fourth or fifth year resident, fourth year resident when it was six years at Northwestern. And I was contemplating and getting pretty far down the road of what fellowships I would pursue and what I was going to do next and trying to really get get that put together. And I had reached out as a Colorado native, and having lived in the mountains of Colorado for quite a while to the folks at Vale hospital, small hospital up there. And long story short, the opportunity to come back and essentially create a urology program from scratch popped up, which I had absolutely no ability or or background or training to do. But they seemed willing and haven't willing to have me and I thought it sounded like fun. That was, that was really my metric of how I made that decision is is this seems like an unusual opportunity that's unlikely to come along again. And it very well may not work out. But it should be fun. And it should be exciting and a challenge and something I can really engage in. So I went back to the mountains, Colorado and spent a good number of years creating that practice, which was literally everything you would imagine I was a solo practitioner straight out of residency, and that get that point without fellowship training. And, and it was incredibly fun. And it was incredibly hard. And I was essentially on call for the first three years without respite. And I just drove over the mountain passes and snowstorms and put catheters in people and operated in three different counties on a single day one time and just ran around doing everything. And it was utterly terrifying for the first year and then it was better after that. And it started really working out pretty well. From a system standpoint up there, the interest in developing beyond having one guy running around solving all the problems was not what I had hoped for. And after five CEOs in barely more than as many years running the system. It just wasn't going forwards. So the opportunity for a lot of reasons. I was pursuing a relationship that I had a lot of belief and, and the idea of just learning more and being better, came up and that was to return to do fellowship, sort of I was viewing as a sabbatical, but it really was, in the same way a great chance to just do something different. It's pretty funny, I remember the talk with a buddy of mine at the time, who's a very successful and wonderful private practice urology guy. And he thought that it was just a complete waste of time. And I was like, Well, you know, financially, I'm sure it's a great waste of time. And I was certainly very well compensated then. But it just wasn't the fun just wasn't there. And the potential of re engaging fun, seemed to have gone away from where can this system go next standpoint, the potential for growth, I should say, seem to have left the room. So So when did fellowship and learn how to do robotic surgery and re entered then academics. And I had the great pleasure of being at the University of Wisconsin for a number of years, which was fantastic. And then I was ultimately lured back to my homeland here at the University of Colorado. So it's been, for me a lot of really fun. And I hate to keep using that word. But I think it's a good one from the standpoint of gratifying practice of medicine, and it's exciting to have gone from literally doing house calls in Leadville, Colorado, in these crazy little old Victorian mining cabins where he never knew what was going to be behind the door to being back at the big building and the big institutions and writing papers and trying to do good operations and having the pleasure working with the residents and the students. It's been quite a spectrum. And I think that thing that guided that arc for me was having metrics, having different metrics of success. And I've thought back on it a bit at times and tried to understand it. But it was never, you know, gosh, I really need to get a job make a bunch of money. I think that's a terrible metric. And I think that you do get to create your own definition of what makes you happy and how you define your own success. And for me, it's been interesting. And there's always parts that are frustrating and there's always things you'd like to make better and that's just The anks of life I think, but but that's the arc. It's been, it's been quite a journey so far. And it's really a pleasure to be in position to get sit and talk with talk with you and review these things now. Yeah, it's
Phillip Pierorazio:a wonderful story. And thank you for sharing it. And I think, you know, one point I just want to make is, you know, you don't have to follow a traditional pathway, right? This is this is by all senses, not traditional, right? Most people do fellowship right out of residency, but yours was non traditional, and look how successful you are. And by success to reflect on your words, this was fun. This was, you know, at every level, you brought new energy, and it kept you going. And I think that's why it's such a great story. And why I think you're such a balanced person from the outside, is that you've always kept the, you know, your your virtues of fun and energy, and purpose at the forefront and help those guide your decisions. And I give you, you know, tremendous kudos for that.
Granville Lloyd, MD:Well, I appreciate that I really do think that a lot of that came from my mother's just sort of innate, different framework. What what I do think, though, and, and really, I've identified in retrospect that I did get a lot of this from watching her, what I do think is that you get to an end, we all get to create our own frameworks of what we value, and then we get to really choose those, I think society, and I think the job will choose those for us if we don't. But I think that one can say, you know, I just want to do this, because it just seems cooler. My mom originally when she was a girl, was interested in going into physics, which is what she did. And her father sat her down and said, Listen, Francey, you are categorically not going to physics, you're going to be an accountant, because you're a young woman. And this is, you know, back back back when. And that's what women do that are good at math, they go into accounting and get a good job, you can find a good husband, you can get out of life. And she said something effective. Isn't that interesting. But now I'm going to pursue this thing that few people had heard of back then. And just kind of go do it. And she just kind of went and did it. And that was sort of her mindset. And I think I was fortunate to get that to a good extent. But I think it does make the point that you really get to choose, you really can sit down, you know, people talk about writing manifestos and outlining sort of your life values. And then using that later to help make decisions about things, but you really can sit down and choose. This is what I think is important. I think education and mentoring is really important. And I'm gonna set that is a metric for my success. I think that money, which is the biggest metric of all, the metric of financial success just pervades everything in society. And economists because their economist just can't stop paying attention to it and thinking about it. business people, because their business, people can't stop paying attention to it and talking about it. But that should not be the metric that we take the medicine. You know, I really believe that as a little bit of an aside, the joy of medicine, the innate joy of medicine is something that we should try much harder to pursue. But But the point, main point being you get you really do get to pick your own definition of success, I think, I think I think that's a valuable thing. It's been a very valuable thing for me to reflect on it at points where I said, you know, this is crazy to do this. And friends of mine are saying, you know, it's crazy to do this. And I was like, well, that may be true, but I think it'll be fun.
Phillip Pierorazio:That's great. So we're running short on time. So I want to reflect back some of the, I think, really poignant things from our talk today, and then hopefully have you back another time. And we can talk about some more of this stuff and take it in another direction. But, you know, we talked about, you know, what you said earlier already about bringing enthusiasm to pursue different domains, and potentially at once is kind of your thought process for balance. You brought up the point of that some things we're going to do are going to be uncomfortable, and there's going to be discomfort associated with medicine, but we can work through that as long as we keep at least 20% of our time, to what we're passionate about. And lastly, what I really took home from you is that in medicine to build joy in medicine, we have the ability not only to craft our values and our definitions of success, but to fight for those values and our definitions of success. That's how we can really find happiness and really be fulfilled in what we're doing.
Granville Lloyd, MD:Absolutely fell. I think those were all just such important points. And and to just try to, for all of us to try to regain that childlike, almost playground mentality of Hey, let's just go have some fun. And recognizing that it's by no means all playground fun and lots and lots of very, very hard work, go into getting to those points. But the excitement of learning the excitement of knowledge, and after a point, the joy of disseminating that knowledge, as well as just the raw fun of having a meaningful connection with a patient, even if it just occurs a couple times a day or a couple times a week, to just seek that joy and seek that fine. Yeah, it's just such a such a good way to think about things.
Phillip Pierorazio:Well, I can't thank you enough for spending some time with me today and talking. It's always a pleasure to talk with you and I hope we can do it again in the future.
Granville Lloyd, MD:Always a pleasure, Phil, thank you so much.